Getting to the heart of travel healthcare.

A podcast hosted by Sunny & Matt

Podcast Transcript


Annie Elliston, RN, is a guest on Cardium podcast and talks about handling difficult situations when on a travel assignment.


September 3, 2019


Voice Over: Welcome to Cardium, the podcast that gets to the heart of travel healthcare and asks, what's your why? With each episode, we explore the topics and issues that impact healthcare professionals in the fields of nursing and allied health. Now here your hosts Sunny and Matt from Aureus Medical.

Sunny: Welcome to another episode of Cardium. If you're a subscriber. Welcome back. Thank you for being part of the Cardium family. And if you're a new listener. Thanks for stopping by. We hope you enjoyed the podcast and we would love for you to subscribe so you can enjoy future podcasts. With me today is Matt. Hello.

Matt: Hey, Sunny. Hello, Matt. How are you? Fantastic. How are you? I'm doing good. I'm doing good. I'm really excited today about our topic.

Matt: I love the topic. It's a good one. Yeah, it resonates. So this should be fun.

Sunny: Yes. Thinking about our topic today, it does resonate. Made me think about a situation with my son in baseball. He's a pitcher and he was experiencing some challenges with his team and just, you know, experiencing some arguing and maybe some people not pulling his weight, their weight. And I said, you know, we can argue about it. We can also have a discussion about it or we can, you know, pout, sit on it, whatever. But I said one thing we have to do is we're a team. And when you're on that mound, you set the tone. No matter what you do, you set the tone and you're a leader. And I said, you make that decision every time you step on that mound. And he said, you're right. And he goes out on that pitcher mound and he calls out and he decided that he was going to be a leader. And when he goes out in that dugout, he circled up the team and he said, you know, we just need to be better. And he rallied up the troops and he made sure he called out anybody that wasn't going to be a team player. He said, no, we're not going to do that. We're not gonna do that today. And I was really, really proud. So so. Yeah. So that's what we're going to talk about. We're going to talk about how we can deal with difficult situations, because let's say, you know, healthcare professionals deal with difficult situations all the time. You know, whether it's out with a co-worker, a supervisor or a patient. And, you know, it's on a much bigger scale, of course, not necessarily kids on a baseball field. It's more, you know, difficult situations while on assignment. And we have a very special guest with us today. Her name is Annie Elliston. Welcome, Annie.

Annie Elliston: Hi. Thank you, Sunny. Thank you, Matt.

Sunny: While Annie is the director of clinical operations with Aureus Medical Group. She has been a registered nurse for over 34 years. Her clinical experience includes over 20 years in the intensive care unit at Nebraska Medicine. She has worked in the emergency department of a level two hospital and on the level four neonatal intensive care unit at Children's Hospital in Omaha. She earned her master's degree in nursing in 2009 and went on to work as a faculty instructor at the University of Nebraska Medical Center College of Nursing. Outside of the clinical setting, Annie served as a director with a national internet based wellness company and various other administrative roles in healthcare. Thank you for joining us today, Annie.

Annie Elliston: Hi. Thank you. Guess I'm excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

Sunny: Good, good. Well, tell us, you know a little bit about the topic. You know that we're talking about difficult situations that we have to deal with. What is the best way for a healthcare professional to prepare for conflict at work?

Annie Elliston: Right. And, you know, that's a great question. And it's an ongoing topic definitely within the travel organization in all elements. And I think one of the most important things travelers can do when they are preparing for an assignment or even an interview is to ensure that they practice the preventative maintenance up front. And they are well aware of the job description and the skill set that they would have and be required to display while they're on this assignment. So I always say do your homework first, read over your job description, work closely with your recruiter and ensure that you have reflected your accurate skill sets in regards to all of that expertise you have in that area, whether it's nursing or other modalities of healthcare jobs. And during that time, you want to ask the tough questions and make sure you're a good match for those jobs so that you have a successful travel assignment.

Sunny: How often would you say that, you know, that causes that issue, not having an accurate job description and being matched into maybe not the right position?

Annie Elliston: Sure. And, you know, it's difficult to put a percentage on it, but there are those times when either the person that interviews the traveler is no longer there, when the traveler gets on assignment or the census or different variations have changed on the assignment, that then are sometimes not things that the traveler could foresee happening. But for the most part, it has probably 40 percent of the time that there are some challenges when the traveler is not real aware of what might be expected of them on their assignment. So, for example, if it's somebody that's worked at a smaller facility. The majority of their career or only at one facility, and now they're going to go to a much larger facility, that may be a challenge for them because it's just a different area than they had the expertise in or the pace and the flow are big challenges for them, along with just the amount of people you need to get along with and all of the other aspects of what may transpire while they're there. There's a lot of different things that can happen along the way. In nursing sometimes you think you're just going to be an ICU nurse and they expect you to float to the E.R. or maybe you are a lab technician or a CAT scan or MRI specialist and they expect you to learn and use other diagnostics while you're there, there outside of your skill set. So that's why it's really important to do your homework up front to ensure you have the skill set.

Matt: So, Annie, would you say that a mismatch or maybe a misestimation of what the job duties are, are the biggest obstacles, biggest things that you see out there, or what would you say cause I'm sure you guys run into a bunch of situations where some of the top situations that you run into there are just really outstanding to you.

Annie Elliston: Yeah. And you know, Matt, that's a great question. And I would say one of the top priorities is kind of in a place inappropriate or mismatch assignment that sometimes, like I said, is unforeseen, and other times it could be, you know, something that we could do a little better with in regards to matching people up, but it is definitely a challenge. And for example, if I'm an adult respiratory therapist and I get placed in a children's hospital that's a population I would not have the clinical expertise to care for, and so we do see that at times. And like I said, it's one of those things that ensuring as the recruiter and as you are preparing yourself, you make sure that you represent yourself accordingly in the front end.

Matt: So many times, travelers don't recognize that they've been mismatched until they're there. Then you get to an assignment and you realize, wow, this was not what was described to me, even through the interview process, that their situation may have changed by the time from the interview to the point of where they traveled to the healthcare professional arrives, the assignment, which they do. I mean, they're there. They're a thousand miles from home. Who do they call?

Annie Elliston: And, you know, that's number two in regards to kind of as we talk through the challenges that our travelers meet in the conflicts they may face. And that, unfortunately, is another aspect of what can happen. And some of the first things they can do are recognize it on their end. Right? Ask for feedback from the management and from the peers that are there. You know, how do you think I'm doing? So that they have a better awareness of their own performance. And in addition, when that starts to transpire in their mind, A; they want to talk to their recruiter about it right away and see if other travelers have been placed in that job role there. What's the history with that facility? Is this something new? You know, and what can we do about it? In addition, I think one of the most important things they can do is then correspond or communicate with the manager or the… the person that maybe interviewed them or whoever they're directly reporting to their supervisor about their concerns, and often it may be their skill set. It may be some technology they have been asked to you work with. It may be for nurses, a patient ratio. They were told they'd have one to four patients and now they have seven. And now they're worried about, you know, patient safety. So all of those things are very valid reasons and why we'd want to escalate this concern immediately to the appropriate people.

Sunny: But number one, do not perform anything that's outside of your scope of practice, right?

Annie Elliston: Absolutely, Sunny. You know, our goal is, A; to keep the traveler’s license or certification safe and obviously to keep our patients safe as well. And so that's why knowing your scope within your practice and whatever that may be is number one, important. Definitely.

Matt: That's not always a malicious thing. It certainly is. I think it's important that healthcare professionals, travelling healthcare professionals are expected to go in there and be pretty amazing people right off the bat. This that's not a normal, normal job. So you're expected to go in there and pull off some small miracles nearly daily.

Annie Elliston: Yes. And you're exactly right, Matt.

Annie Elliston: And I'll tell you, in the feedback we get from the clients or the hospitals or the facilities, they they'll say we expect them to hit the ground running, and they expect a miracle in 24 hours. And let's face it, a lot of times when they are bringing people in for travel assignments, they have a shortage of staff. So you're not going into the golden storybook facility at times.

Matt: So. So to Sunny's point, even if some things being asked that the first thing that should do is recruiter make that call.

Annie Elliston: Yes, definitely make that call. Find out if your agency has somebody on call 24 hours a day. So if it's 2 o'clock in the morning and you're being asked to take a patient from the E.R., do a test or exam, that you shouldn't have to please ensure that you can communicate with your recruiter in a timely manner, and hopefully they do have that 24 hour call option so you can talk that through with them.

Matt: But to Sunny's point, do not, do not do anything that is out of your scope.

Annie Elliston: Absolutely. And if that means that you have to step up and say, you know, that's not in my scope. I've never done that before. Because the expectation for the traveler always is you are an expert in your field and you're not there to learn or train, and so if a client's expecting you to do so, you need to ensure that that's still within your scope and that they understand that you are a novice in that.

Matt: Yeah.

Sunny: And it could be something simple. I recall having a traveler who was a PTA, with is something as simple as, hey, do you mind turning on this oxygen for me and taking this patient down? And he was let go because that was not, you know, within his scope of practice.

Annie Elliston: You're absolutely right.

Sunny: You can't do that. You’re not an RN, so don't.

Annie Elliston: Oxygen is a medication and that person in that scope could not administer that medication. Absolutely. That's a great example. And we see a lot of different examples. We had to echo tech on assignment that they expected that echo tech in the spare time to go do diagnostic chest x-rays on the floor. And they had not been trained to do so. And so they called the recruiter right away and said, you know, they're asking me to do x-rays in the meantime. And that's something I'm not qualified to do. And that's exactly the right thing to do in those situations, for sure.

Sunny: And another question that, you know, with nurse staffing that we sometimes face is the type of staffing or acuity based zone versus acuity based staffing that they get into. And so whether they're doing…do you run into that as to how it impacts whether a nurse is able to take that many patients, you know, because they're used to a different style. You know?

Annie Elliston: Right. Yeah. And once again, that's another great question. And that's more predominantly in nursing than in other roles. But it certainly is a reality. The majority facilities that I've personally worked at have done acuity based assignment where the nurse will rate the patient based on how many I.V. drips they have going if they're on the ventilator. What types of medications are on, then that qualifies how critical they are or their acute level. So the majority of the time, the acuity rating assignment process is you only have the acuity of such an amount. And then that's so… you may have two critical patients and two that aren't so critical. Something like that. The zone based assignment is these are your block of rooms, four rooms or five rooms or whatever it is, and that's pretty much how an E.R. works. When you're an E.R. nurse, you get four rooms and whatever is in those rooms is your patients, and it could be four very critical patients or for very light patients that are kind of treat and street patients that aren't going to stay in the facility. So it is a challenge, and that is another question. If you are traveling as a nurse, you'd want to ask upfront is how are the patients assigned? Is it acuity based? Is it zone based so that you know what you're walking into, especially for the first time traveler. It's really important for them because they aren't used to adapting so quickly. So they want to ensure they ask those questions.

Matt: I think it's important for some travelers, longtime travelers. I think the big thing is to ask the questions. And really understand what you're getting yourself into because every assignment is different, and that is a small nuances that there may be hidden again, maybe not always. It's not on purpose, but it's just there. So asking good, good questions and how it will impact number one, patient and safety and care.

Annie Elliston: Absolutely, Matt. Definitely.

Matt: And then also as you mentioned, your license, your livelihood as the healthcare provider.

Annie Elliston: Yes. And you know it. That's at the end of the day. The most important thing that the traveler can continue to keep on the forefront of their mind is ensuring that they're keeping that certification or license safe as well as our patients. Definitely.

Sunny: I feel as though we hear about patient ratios all the time and its impact on safety. And it depends you know, especially with the nursing field, seems as though no matter what state were in or what hospital, those ratios change. You know, some are used to a six to one summaries to a four to one if they're on a med-surg, you know, it just depends on which hospital they're at. So what do you say to that travel nurse who is used to a different ratio? How do you, you know, encourage them to carry on? What do you say to them that says, I'm in an unsafe situation and you're like, well, in actuality, you know, that's a ratio that isn't right.

Annie Elliston: And we you do have those tough conversations. Some states have certain certifications or specifications on how on what the ratios can be. Other states don't. Some health organizations do, but once again, your role, whether it's a med-surg nurse or an ICU nurse, there is kind of a commonality or an expectation in regards to ratios. So A; ask up front about what the normal ratios are, so you know what you're walking into because that is very difficult if you end up with a higher ratio than you're used to and it's a flow in a pace that you can't keep up with. Especially if let's just throw one more caveat in there, maybe it's a new documentation system they've never charted on before, and so now you've got one or two extra patients you haven't had to care for in the past. In addition, you have the learning curve of the documentation system, and so you definitely want to A; once again talk to the charge nurse on that shift, talk to the supervisor, talk to your recruiter. Is that an isolated incident where that day maybe there was some ill calls and it just happened that everybody had to take one or two extra patients? Or is this going to be the commonality of the assignments? And then maybe we all need to work together to see what, you know, what we can do to facilitate the safety and the ratios being at a level where if the expectation is going to keep everybody safe.

Matt: We spoke a lot about the nursing side of things. And understandably, there's a lot of nurses out there. Nation's nurses are on the forefront in many ways of patient care. But there's a lot of allied healthcare professionals out there that are travelers. And I'm just curious and in the role that you're in. What do you see out there? That's a common kind of a common situation that you have to advise on. Either advise the recruiter on how to advise the healthcare professional or maybe even some of the conversations you've had with the allied professionals of what they've run into.

Annie Elliston: Absolutely, Matt. And to, to your point, there are definitely a lot of nurses. But the challenges don't end with nursing, the challenges are very present and with allied folks as well and in those situations met, a lot of the commonalities are either the diagnostic technology that, you know, maybe they're lab technician and they are working with a machine they haven't worked with. So for those travelers, it's important to A; understand the policy in the procedure of the department you're in right away because those are very specific to a facility to facility. So maybe, for example, in this lab, we calibrate the machines every 12 hours. And at my previous facility, it was every 24. So knowing what's expected of you and what your job duties are. Other things that happen with the allied folks is the flow in the pace in regards to going from a smaller to a bigger facility and then being able to keep up in the roles they’re in. You know, maybe they've worked in a clinic where they just do outpatient X-rays and now they're in a busy level one facility where they're running to the E.R. all night, pushing an X-ray machine and then transporting those X-rays to radiologists at home. Very, very different types of job roles. So those once again, the better match you can do up front with your recruiter and your skill set going to assignments that you've previously done successfully will help then kind of ensure that those problems don't transpire while you're there.

Matt: I'm going to sound like a broken record. Yes, but it's asking questions, isn't it? Yeah, it really is. It comes down to it. And I think that I really do think that recruiters want those questions answered, too. I think as, as a former recruiter, as a former recruiter Sunny and I, you know, we…we wanted those questions to we didn't want to put our healthcare professionals in a situation that was that was gonna, whether it be a nurse or a med tech, a therapist, an imaging tech, respiratory therapist, we did not want to put people in a situation that was gonna be bad for patients.

Annie Elliston: Yes.

Matt: Bad for them, bad for them, bad for the company. It's, it's symbiotic. So. Yeah, that's so important. Ask those questions.

Annie Elliston: Definitely, Matt. You know, and like I said, along with those questions, how many other if you're going to work evenings or nights, how many other people are going to be there as your colleagues? So one of the things we see a lot on the Allied side, too, is maybe there's only one radiology person or one person in the lab at night and they're expected to run the blood bank and be the phlebotomist or to go, you know, to the E.R. to get that patient that needs to have a CAT scan. And that's just outside of what they've done previously. So A; to your point, ask those questions. But really, then once you get on the assignment, you know, really take advantage of your orientation process. Another thing you can do that I didn't previously mention, but if you and your one or two quick days of orientation, where you are expected to hit your ground running…

Matt: If you're lucky.

Annie Elliston: If you're lucky. You get the feel that right, that you're not that comfortable or you need to shadow somebody an additional day or an additional test or procedure with that diagnostic equipment? Don't be afraid. Speak up early and say, you know what, can I see that one more time? Can I shadow somebody on that surgical case or can I shadow my preceptor one more day in the ICU with a sick, sick patient so that I ensure that I'm gonna be able to meet the expectations of the performance you need me to have. So, you know, early on, really be an advocate for yourself to set yourself up for success.

Sunny: Do that gut check. Because if you are mulling over something or you're just kind of uneasy, then that should be a, you know, test yourself. It should be just kind of an indicator to yourself that, hey, I am not feeling easy about this, so I need to ask a question. And, you know, with the students that I work with, I'm always telling them when they're interviewing, they need to make sure that they're interviewing their…their hiring manager as well. So it’s their opportunity to ask those questions. And you need to find out everything you can about that facility because it's your opportunity to feel comfortable. So it's not just about them interviewing you, it's about you interviewing them. And so that way you understand exactly what's going on. And so if you're just kind of feeling a little bit unsure about what's going on, you need to ask that question. You've got to be sure before you walk in that door.

Annie Elliston: Yeah. And, you know, Sunny, to your point, that's a great way to put it. Not only are you being interviewed, but interview them and look at it as a fact finding time before you get on that assignment, even though you can't wait to go to that great state and experience all the fun that's going to be there as well. Really be your own best friend and advocate. Definitely. Great point.

Sunny: Yes. And ask questions along the way when you're there.

Annie Elliston: You know, and one of the other things that we didn't touch on, but I just wanted to touch on is along with asking those questions and doing the homework. There's the other side of conflict, too. And sometimes that's employee to employee or a colleague to colleague. And those are often challenging. Sometimes we'll see ethical issues that transpire or, you know, a long time permanent staff member… that's kind of the bully at the facility and those are other challenging things that we see that then, you know, chip away at maybe yourself clinical self-confidence or your ability to complete your role. And so those are also real problems that we see happen. And once again, you'll want to be able to be your best advocate and to address those up front so they don't begin to, you know, be a bigger challenge for you on those assignments.

Matt: So your team then, Annie, does advise if there is a situation where it's interpersonal and, you know, be it a bully or just some type of personality conflict, you do advise on…ways to help out with that situation.

Annie Elliston: Absolutely. You know, and that's the thing. We are a resource and in the moment is, is a great way to be able to speak with them. And kind of sometimes you talk them off the ledge where they're just at their wits end in regards to maybe how they've been able to manage this assignment themselves and now they need some additional assistance. And so we talk through that with them and give them other resources and tools on how to confront those conflicts, to continue to be successful and meet the expectations of that assignment. Definitely.

Matt: That's great. That's helpful.

Sunny: Travel assignments are a long time to be interacting with your co-workers, but I always say avoid watercooler talk. If you want to not be involved in that conflict, but what would you say - how do you, you know, avoid or what would those type of…sometimes people just want to pull you in. They just want to.

Annie Elliston: No, they will. And you know, the majority these segments are 12 hour shifts for the most part, two depending on what your job role is. And so you're spending all your waking hours there. Definitely. And so it's just kind of like what all of our mothers used to teach us, you know? You know, just take the high road and avoid the conflict here points. Avoid the watercooler gossip. Stay off your cell phone. Maintain your level of professionalism in your area of expertise and don't let those people chip away at you because they're always going to be there. And like I said earlier, the facilities sometimes that are having travelers there have had challenges in keeping staff for various reasons. And that may be one of the reasons as well.

Sunny: Like my kid. Set the tone be that, be that person on the mound.

Annie Elliston: Yep. I always say take the high road and be that leader, definitely.

Matt: So important. Yeah. I think it's we spoke a lot about upfront asking the questions and what you do when you when you a person would get on assignment and really understanding the orientation if you get any kind of advice there. But as far as halfway through six weeks into a 13 week assignment, the duty changes because of…someone goes on the medical leave or there's another shortage and you're asked to do something that was out of the scope again. What should the healthcare professional do if the stream changes course mid assignment?

Annie Elliston: Yeah. And we do see that happen. You know, so like to your point, somebody go on maternity leave early or somebody will…will leave the organization and now they're asking you to go somewhere else. I had a cath lab nurse on assignment and a group of cardiologists left and that now all of a sudden they didn't have a need in the cath lab anymore. So they wanted that nurse to flow to the E.R. and to float med-surg. So she called us and she said, hey, this is out of my scope. And absolutely. It was out of her scope. And so our job, our duty, our goal is to keep them safe and practice doing within our scope, as we've previously talked about, and hopefully we can work with the facility to ensure that they understand that the traveler’s there and here's the job description they came on and can we work to ensure that that's the duties they're going to they're going to be expected to take care of and to facilitate? And for the majority of the time, either myself, I talk to the facility, or the recruiter does. But we come to some level of agreement in how that traveler can continue to be successful and not be faced with, you know, what mid assignment, now, guess what? You're going to go from nights, two days, or you're going to go from doing this job role to that job role, which is very upsetting to them, you know. And so our goal is once again to problem solve in the moment and take care of those in our urgent nature to continue to protect the assignment and keep them successful. There are very few times, but there are times when we have to remove the traveler from those assignments or let the organization know if you know these expectations can't be met, then they will most likely not be able to stay on that assignment.

Matt: Well, I love the idea of problem solving, and I love that that's the first line of defense is let's see how we can work this out. Whether it be a shift change or duty changes or difficult coworker. I love that that's your mantra. Let's, let's figure out how we can fix this. And so isn't it interesting that we're working with healthcare professionals, trying to help people, help people?

Annie Elliston: Yes, yes. Yes.

Matt: It's as though it's the way it's our lives. But definitely the way it works. But I love that.

Annie Elliston: Yeah

Matt: That that is your first your first responsibility is hope these people help them.

Annie Elliston: Right. And I would say 90, 95 percent of the time we're able to facilitate and complete that assignment with the ability. You know, it's just once again, keeping everybody abreast of what's going on between your recruiter and the clinical department or your other resources that you have at your agency. And then the people that you're on site with. Definitely. And then it creates a great successful relationship for everybody.

Matt: Love it.

Annie Elliston: Yeah.

Sunny: Well, Annie, there there's a lot to cover. But what I would say would be your best advice that you would give anyone on assignment or at just any healthcare worker. Your best advice for handling a difficult situation.

Annie Elliston: Yeah. And I think as we've just to kind of summarize, as we've talked through, you know, prior to traveling ever, you know, just ensure that that you've got the knowledge and expertise to carry out the job role in which you hope to travel on. And then prior to doing so, work with your recruiter to ask the questions, you know, to your point, be interviewed, that person that's interviewing you, talk to them about what they know. They're your first resource. And so they have had other travelers there in those job roles, most likely. Or if they haven't, they've had colleagues that have. So ask them in great detail about what they expect you to ask. And then along the way, ask your other you know, there's resources out there to help you, but do that homework up front to ensure that you're a good fit for that assignment and that it's a similar, you know, facility that you're used to working with. And then as we've talked about, as things may transpire, once you get there, you know, know your resources, that the supervisor, the manager, your recruiter, your agency's resources, all of those things. But do not let things go on for a long time, take care of them urgently, so that once again, keeping yourself safe and successful and ensuring we have patient safety is our primary goal.

Matt: Great advice.

Annie Elliston: Yeah.

Matt: Great advice.

Sunny: Well, since we are wrapping up, we always like to ask our guests this important question. What's your why?

Annie Elliston: My why… my, why I’m a nurse? Why I'm sitting in the chair today?

Sunny: Yeah all of any of it.

Annie Elliston: So, you know, I have to tell you, there's a lot of accomplishments I'm proud of in my life. But being a nurse is probably one of the most proud accomplishments I have. And I take it very seriously. And so my why is it started a very long time ago when I was four years old. My mom was diagnosed with a terminal illness and she ended up passing away of cancer when I was at a very young age. So I spent the majority of my childhood going from doctor to doctor and hospital to hospital. And by the time I was six years old, I was obsessed with the nurses because not only were there the nurturing, care taking, compassionate, dedicated people at the bedside, but they were smart. And I would hear my mom and dad talk about that nurse. The nurses in the room. Here comes the nurse. And so I just created this great level of respect for the nurse. So I think when I was 6 or 7, I got my first Florence Nightingale cape for Christmas. My plastic stethoscope. And I didn't play house. I played hospital at my house. So by the grace of God, I got into the nursing practice and I spent a lot of years at the bedside, which I found great satisfaction on. Definitely. And so the why for me is I continue to want to be a nurse for a very long time. People say, when are you going to retire? And like, I'm never going to retire. I'm going to be a nurse. So. And that's the beauty of a lot of healthcare jobs that you can practice for a long, long time, but I think at the end of the day, my need to make a difference in the lives of people have kept me at the forefront of nursing and I'm proud now to do what I do as well.

Sunny: That's amazing.

Matt: Yes, awesome.

Annie Elliston: Thank you. Why, thank you.

Sunny: Well, thanks for joining us. And I haven't known Annie very long. But you know what you do and your love for what you do just shines through and through. And so thank you for the topic. And, you know, we handle difficult things everyday in our lives and also at work. And so we just have to remember that we have to ask questions. We have to ask for help. But we also have to remember that we have to know where we're heading. We also have to ask the right questions, ask for support and know who to ask those questions to. And thanks to Annie for giving us that piece of advice. As always, we love to hear from you. So please drop us a review and let us know your thoughts on today's topic or anything else you'd like to discuss. I like to thank my cohort and partner in crime, Matt.

Matt: Thanks, everybody. Thanks again.

Annie Elliston: Oh, absolutely.

Matt: Great podcast. Thanks, Sunny.

Sunny: Thank you.

Voice Over: Until next time you've been listening to Cardium from Aureus Medical with your host Sunny and Matt, we're the podcast that gets to the heart of travel, healthcare. To subscribe access show notes or to learn more, visit Cardium podcast dot com. C A R D I U M podcast dot com or wherever you're listening. Be sure to write us, review and subscribe. Thanks for tuning in. Until next time.

We want to hear from you!

We love connecting with our listeners. Have a show topic, a suggestion, or feedback on our podcast? Interested in being a guest? Reach out to us!

Send us a Message