Getting to the heart of travel healthcare.

A podcast hosted by Sunny & Matt

Podcast Transcript


EP13

Dr. Liam Kavin, PT, joins Cardium podcast to talk about the tiny house he custom built, lives in, and that gets him from one place to the next during his assignments as a travel physical therapist.

Towing the Tiny House Life in Travel Healthcare

February 5, 2020



TRANSCRIPT

Voice Over: Welcome to Cardium from Aureus Medical, the podcast that gets to the heart of travel healthcare and asks what's your why. With each episode, we explore the topics and issues that impact healthcare professionals in the fields of nursing and allied health. Now here are your hosts, Sunny and Matt.

Matt: Welcome to another episode of Cardium. Welcome back to our subscribers. If you're a new listener to Cardium, welcome to you too and please subscribe so you can be notified and tune in for future episodes. Join me as always, Sunny. How are you today?

Sunny: I am great. How are you?

Matt: I'm doing really, really well. Again, I say this about every single episode, but this episode is going to be awesome.

Sunny: That's because every episode we have is amazing.

Matt: Is awesome. Well, you know this about me, but I nerd. I'm a nerd.

Sunny: You are.

Matt: And I nerd out [crosstalk]

Sunny: In a great way though.

Matt: And one of the secrets about one of my nerdisms is I love the television shows about tiny houses.

Sunny: I do too.

Matt: Love it. Love it. So when this was brought to us, this idea, this guest was brought to us today, I could not be more stoked. I mean, we spoke about a lot of good things, but this is really cool. So I think our guest is going to give us a lot of insight about some tiny house stuff.

Sunny: I know, and I'm really, really excited because I think a lot of our listeners are going to be excited. And they're going to be pretty stoked to hear how this all came about. So without any further ado, Dr. Liam Kavin, he's a PT, DPT, has been a travel physical therapist for the last two years since graduated from Ithaca College in 2017. Originally from Maine, he's worked in major hospitals in Boston, New York City, Southern Massachusetts, and is now in his fifth contract in the four corners areas of New Mexico with Aureus Medical. Liam travels with his girlfriend Gabrie, and most of the time they live in their fully rebuilt 1984 truck camper. Once their time in New Mexico is up, they plan to travel up the West Coast. You can follow their journey on Instagram @timmyandtheuglycamper, which is your tiny house really.

Liam: What's that?

Sunny: Which is kind of like your tiny house, right?

Liam: No, exactly. Yeah.

Sunny: I want to make sure I get that right. It's @Timmyandtheuglycamper. That's an interesting name.

Liam: Well, so we decided that when we rebuilt it, we made the interior look really nice, but then the outside was pretty ugly. So we're like, let's just embrace it.

Matt: I love it. I love it.

Sunny: That's awesome. So let's start with you, Liam. Tell me a little about what led you into being a physical therapist. Tell me about that.

Liam: Yeah. So I think lots of people have really great stories about how they became a PT. Either they tore an ACL and they went through the rehab process or something like that. For me, I didn't have any specific injury or anything like that. For me, I was just really interested in kind of the physics of physical therapy and kind of the health related aspects of it where you treat people specifically through exercise alone and you don't get kind of all screwed up by the getting into medications and more of the politics of medical care and things like that. I enjoyed kind of the direct patient interaction that I saw in the PT clinic in my town. So it kind of drove me towards that. And it didn't hurt that it was like a six year doctoral degree. I thought that was really cool at the time, and I know that's what is attracting a lot of people to the field now. Yeah, that was kind of my big reason for going in I suppose. Not as major an event story as a lot of people have, but just kind of where it worked out for me.

Sunny: That's awesome, and it doesn't really Matter because it's what drove you to your passion. So that's okay.

Liam: Yeah, exactly.

Matt: Those are all fantastic, Liam. But let's cut to the chase here because I'm nerding out. I need to know-

Liam: Hey, this is the interesting part.

Matt: Yeah. Let's hear about this tiny house. Why a tiny house? Why Timmy? What led you to Timmy here?

Liam: Ever since sophomore year of college, I think it was actually right before the show started, but it was becoming a big thing to like people were like, "Tiny houses, it's a craze. It's really cool." And I was like, "Oh, I'm definitely going to do that. After college, I'll get a tiny house. I'll do the trailer and build it up and everything and drop the like $30,000 or whatever people did to get those." It kind of evolved over time. Right after college, I still had the interest, but I was working in Boston for a few months. And you can't really live in a tiny house in Boston. It's too metropolitan pretty much.

Liam: So once the idea finally started to come around where I was like, "I'm probably going to be leaving the city soon. What are the options out there?" Van life became a really big thing. So we looked at vans originally, and I did buy a... I had a 1987 Volkswagen Vanagon I lived in for three or four months, and we kind of like rebuilt that a little bit on the inside. And then it kind of we went through more of my ideas. We were like how do we kind of grow this to live with two people as Gabrie kind of became more in the picture. Decided the Vanagon was way too small, and we're like we can do a large van, which we build out, which people spend tons of money on. Or we can just team around to the truck camper idea. We can get this reliable vehicle and then have like this modular camper that comes off that we can drop places and just have a daily commuter. And yeah, it kind of grew into that. So we built a truck camper instead.

Sunny: Nice.

Matt: So when you're talking so graduating from van life to Timmy, it was a size issue at that point? For you guys to enable you to travel across the country, be comfortable, still be able to go where you want to go and have accessibility and everything. So really the upgrade for you if you can call it from a mini house to a tiny house was really about size from the van?

Liam: Yeah, partially. I mean, there were a lot of parts that went into it. The Vanagon, it's an '87. They don't make anything like that anymore. So you can't get a van with popups and everything like that anymore for anything less than like $60,000. And so we were like we don't really want to spend $60,000 on this new build. That's just for the vehicle alone, and you still have to put all the stuff inside of it. And so we could've gotten a... A lot of people do the big ole Sprinter vans. I'm sure anybody does a contract out West, they'll see them everywhere. But they're a lot, a lot of money. Whereas you can do a truck camper and spend way less. We got the new vehicle and then spent almost nothing on the truck camper itself, and just the time to rebuild it. And we still get about as much space as you get in one of those big full size Sprinter vans. But we don't have all the debt associated with one of those things, which is a big thing for us.

Matt: Yeah, that's something to consider for sure is the cost. It doesn't sound like it's a cheap date obviously to have that freedom, and portability comes at a price a little bit. But it sounds like you guys really knew what you needed, especially as it evolved a little bit.

Sunny: Is that why you didn't go with an RV then?

Liam: Yeah. So the big thing with RVs is if you buy a new one, they tend to not be the best build quality, period.

Sunny: Oh, didn't know that.

Liam: The current RVs, unless you want to spend a lot of money on like an AirStream or something like that. But those are $120,000. So that's not worth it. If you buy a used one, then you run into the problem of if you're a travel physical therapist, how are you going to feel driving through the deserts of Utah if you get a flat tire or your transmission poops out or something like that. So we were like we want a new vehicle for the reliability, but how do we make that work with the kind of trying to save money at the same time. So the truck camper happened.

Sunny: So tell me how... so you're in school, you are trying to get your doctorate's degree. But you also have this end goal here for you're going to be... Or did you know you're going to be a travel physical therapist at the time? And then also have this idea of having a tiny house. I mean, how did those two ideas merge?

Liam: It kind of happened really organically honestly. I didn't know until probably halfway through my final year that I was like, I'll do travel, but I wanted to do like a permanent contract first. Not a permanent contract, a permanent position for a year first.

Sunny: Sure.

Liam: And so I was like, I'll spend a year in Boston and live the city experience while you're young and it's more fun to be in a city when you're young and don't have roots and things like that. And I knew kind of the plan for van life or some kind of camper or whatever, tiny house, what happened after that. But I didn't think of it so much in the terms of like, "Oh, if you're a travel physical therapist, it's kind of a match made in Heaven to have some sort of mobile housing situation as well." And it just kind of worked out to be like if we're going to move contract to contract, you might as well have this housing setup that just kind of comes with you. You don't have to unload. You don't have to pack up anything. You're always ready to be mobile. So once I got the Vanagon and then started traveling with that, I was like, "Oh, this is like a super no-brainer." It started out as like this is really a fun thing, and I was like, "This makes a lot of sense for travel physical therapy." So we've just stuck with it.

Sunny: Okay.

Matt: When we were talking, Liam, about... Since we are on a podcast, we can't show pictures here. I think it'd be fun for our audience to kind of get a visual of what your setup is like. So you've got a camper that sits on, essentially on a pickup truck, is that kind of where we're going? Can you kind of describe for the audience of how it looks if they could put it in their mind's eye?

Liam: Mm-hmm (affirmative). So basically if you go with the general route, a lot of people do a Ford F150 or a 250 or something in that size, and then you have a seven or eight foot bed. And it's just a self-contained truck, and then on top of that, you can get any camper that fits that size truck bed. And then it's pretty much up on jack stands. It's up in the air. And you just back the truck up underneath it and then drop the camper down on top of it and then strap it in. And then the strapping it in part is kind of what holds the two together as you're driving down the road at 70 miles an hour and things like that or going over washboard or back roads or whatever. So you hope you do a good job strapping it down. Yeah, that's pretty much it.

Liam: Our current one, it's the way it connects, but we have a smaller truck. We have a Ford Ranger, mid-size because we wanted to be a little bit more self -contained. And the truck camper itself is lighter so it pops up and saves a little bit of space that way. And you're living space is all self-contained in the camper.

Matt: Nice. So this setup, so the larger pickup you essentially then have two going on is what you're saying for the Ranger's got its own setup, and then compared to your other camper setup. Is that what you're saying?

Liam: Oh, no, no, no. We only have the one truck.

Matt: Do you? Okay.

Liam: Yeah. So it's a lot of people will go the 250 route, like the bigger trucks. That's what you'll see most commonly, and it's definitely if you're just brand new to it and don't want to do as much of the tinkering, it's the easier way to do it is get a giant truck and just put a regular camper on it. But we got an undersized truck and then modified the truck to fit a slightly larger camper.

Matt: Got it. And then do you take the camper off when you get to your assignment so you can drive your pick-up around, or do you keep it all hooked up?

Liam: So that's the beauty of it is we can kind of do whatever we want. So when we first got here, it wasn't too cold or anything like that. So for the most part, we just left the camper on the truck. We drove it to wherever we wanted to stay for the night, and we just wanted to be on land. And we just kind of popped it up. When we were just in the truck, and the truck was part of it. But we have the option of if we're on contract, we can drop the camper off and then just the truck as a commuter. So that's actually what we're doing right now. But it just kind of depends on what we feel like doing that given week or day or whatever.

Matt: Sure. Yeah. Versatile for us.

Sunny: Tell me what the inside of your camper because when I think of a tiny house, I'm wondering you know what the house version of a tiny house is on the TV show. But obviously it's going to be different for a travel healthcare worker because it's not so permanent. You got to be able to go every 13 weeks. So for you, I'm thinking what's a kitchen look like, what's a bathroom look like? Things like what's your sleeping area look like? Can you kind of tell me what are those basic essentials look like for you?

Liam: Okay. I'll start at the sleeping area because that's like the very front of it. So the camper is called a cab over, so there's a section that goes over the top of the truck, like over your heads when you're driving basically. I think we have a full size bed up there right now. Like a ton of space. So you kind of sleep way up in the area, away from the bears or anything that you may be concerned about.

Sunny: That's a good thing.

Liam: And then right below that, kind of like over the sides of the truck bed is where your kitchen's going to be. We have it down on if you're walking in, our entire kitchen is on the left side. We have a bunch of drawers we put in and a sink. And we live in the lap of luxury, so we have running water of course. And then down the right side, it's just a couch area, and then we have our fridge over there. It's like an Overlander fridge that takes very low voltage. And then kind of everything's kind of just tucked away into shelving units and everything as much as possible. And beneath the seating, around the seating, cabinetry in the front, cabinetry down the side. Yeah, I mean, it's not a lot of space. It's pretty much it.

Sunny: What do you cook with? I mean, do you use a hot burner stove or a microwave, or-

Liam: Oh, god no. A microwave would be so much energy.

Sunny: Oh, okay.

Liam: The things you think about in a tiny house that you don't think about otherwise.

Sunny: Yeah, yeah. School me. Let me know.

Liam: We started with, what was it called? I think a New Wave electric cook burner, like a propane single burner we screw into one of the top of those green canister stoves you usually see people camping with. And we just use that because it does the trick. It's just like a regular gas stove.

Sunny: Okay, great.

Liam: But there's a lot of options.

Sunny: Okay.

Matt: So I'm really curious. When you were talking about you can camp on BML land if you feel like it, but if you're on an assignment, and you've done five assignments now, Liam, what's the typical set up for if you're going to be at a hospital or a location for 13 weeks? Where do you guys park, and is a park place? Where do people go that they need to have access because you probably don't want to be moving that thing every night even though you could.

Liam: Try not to.

Matt: Yeah. But as far as you got to go back to work the next day, what's the easiest? How do you guys arrange for that?

Liam: So that's the big scary question that got me first starting with the van. I was like, "Where do I actually put this thing and live?" Because you don't ever think about that. In terms of like if I don't have an actual address, where do I go? And I'll admit it was like a really big challenge for the first two weeks or so. On the East Coast, I was in Attleboro, Massachusetts, which is when I first started living in the van. And this is the part that sketches people out I think a little bit. I just started first I was on the side of the road in just parts of town that looked like they were peaceful. Kind of the thing that [crosstalk]

Sunny: This looks less shady.

Matt: Yeah, that would be weird at all seeing a van just randomly parked in peaceful places, but yeah, I hear what you're saying.

Liam: And on the East Coast, that's a big challenge, and it's not glamorous. That's kind of one of the parts that you don't see in the van life Instagram and stuff like that.

Matt: Right.

Liam: But for me it works because at that point it was just me, and I was like, I spend most of my day at work, and then every single night I come back and I just go to the gym, I make my dinner, and then I go and I find a spot to park at eight or nine o'clock at night. It's just a place to sleep. A quote that I hear all the time that I really like is, "You don't live in the van, you live out of the van." So all my life was happening elsewhere, and then I just happened to instead of going to a nice warm apartment at night, I was in my very stuffy, at that point, van instead.

Liam: But I parked on the side of the road for a while. I parked in the back area of the hospital for a little while, but I rotated around so I was never in one spot every single night, which is taxing. It's not an easy thing to do I'll admit. But what eventually ended up happening, and what I kind of shot for now if I'm going to be on the East Coast is one of my coworkers was like, "I have this big empty lawn, you can just park in my lawn." So an objectively weird thing, but I just went and I parked in my coworkers lawn. And that's where I lived for the last two months.

Sunny: Nice. I thought you were going to say when you said this is going to sound weird, but I always wonder like when I drive by storage unit places and you see RVs in there. I'm like is he going to say that he stays in storage unit parking lots.

Liam: I have standards.

Sunny: Oh, sorry Dr. Kavin.

Liam: Once I got used to it, it was way easier than I initially thought on the East Coast. I will say it's much more of a match made in Heaven on the West Coast. Like out here, it's easy. Objectively easy because there's BLM everywhere. There's tons and tons of open land. You can drive into anywhere pretty much and just set up. There's probably going to be three other people doing the same thing a few hundred feet away. And if you want to me more isolated, you can drive out three miles into the woods, especially with a truck having four wheel drive, and we can go and park out there. We have the world's our oyster out here pretty much whereas it was much more of a challenge on the East Coast.

Sunny: That's awesome.

Matt: That makes sense. So I'm curious, if you were to talk to someone that was a traveler, traveling healthcare professional, and they wanted to get into this, what are the big benefits to this? Obviously I think you'd mentioned one. You live your life outside of your home. I think that you probably do a little bit more living outside when you're not working. What are some of the other big benefits to this?

Liam: I think the absolute biggest thing that's the big benefit for travelers, specifically travel nurses, travel physical therapists, OTs, whatever, is kind of that mobility aspect. It takes the guess work out of where am I going to live, how am I going to find housing, how much am I going to pay for short term furnished housing, and is that even going to be an option for that first week that I'm out there. I think the biggest challenge we face as travelers is we don't want to get stuck in some dingy motel for a few weeks and find a not so great apartment in the wrong part of town or something like that because you don't know the area. Whereas if you have your house in your truck bed basically or in your van or as part of your camper or whatever, you can go out. You spend that first week kind of just exploring the area, camping in the places that seem right, especially if you're out West on the BML. And then you can kind of just settle down wherever you like, and you get bored, you just switch it up and you go live somewhere else that might be three miles from work. You can still commute from but it's a beautiful, natural area that you're living in.

Matt: That's great.

Sunny: What would you say would be a disadvantage or some of the disadvantages?

Liam: There definitely are a few. So we're smaller than most people are, especially for two people. A lot of people I think who do this, working full-time specifically, not remotely, usually have a much bigger setup than we do. And so our biggest thing I think we're struggling with right now is we're out in Colorado. So I work in New Mexico, but I'm living in southwestern Colorado. And skiing's a big thing here. We want to get a lot more winter gear. So we decided, well, maybe we'll rent for now because we don't know where we're going to put a lot of winter gear. If we start to acquire tons of boots and things like that, we want to make sure we have a place to put it. So that's a bit of a challenge. It's also an advantage because we don't have as much stuff just in our lives that's kind of weighing us down, and it does make you more intentional about the things you own and the things you buy. But it's definitely sometimes you're like, "I wish I could just go and buy a pair of skis and not worry about where am I going to put that pair of skis in June?

Liam: And then I think... Let's see. Other disadvantage of it. I really think that's the biggest one. And then on the East Coast, it was like where do I park this thing without being the creeper in the van?

Matt: Yeah, it's interesting to think about of all the things you think about on an assignment, you're going to a new place. You got patients that you have to care for. None of that was a concern for you, Liam. It was where am I going to park my creepy van. I mean, that's a different take for the traveling world about where am I going to live tonight. So different world. You definitely have some different concerns there. I'm curious because traveling healthcare professionals do receive stipends. As far as the stipends that you receive, how they work, is there anything different that a traveler would get that is living the van life or living the tiny house life versus someone who's going trying to find a traditional apartment for their assignments?

Liam: So you still have to follow the regular rules of I have a tax home, which is back in Maine. And this sounds very familiar to anyone who's traveling on a regular basis is you have to maintain your tax home, and then you have to have your second location that you're living to qualify for that tax home basically. That's kind of why you get the tax benefits. Within my understanding, the way it works is as long as you have that permanent address and you're not working near that permanent address, no Matter what, you get your stipend, you get your food, housing, et cetera, et cetera. So that's kind of like ours to keep, that's our incentive to be travelers effectively. The benefit of being kind of this mobile housing setup is you can keep that and pocket much more of it because you do still have your secondary living expenses, which is your gasoline and maybe you have an auto payment or however you do this. But you're not paying to sign up for a three month lease that you might end up having to drop if your contract decides they wanted a permanent hire or something like that. So you get all the benefits of that stipend without some of the risk that's associated with it.

Matt: Yeah. For sure. I think traveling healthcare folks out there will know exactly what you're talking about when it comes to those stipends, but regardless of not being in an apartment, you still have expenses with your home. I mean, it's just different expenses. I think that's the big thing. It's not a Matter of you just being able to pocket everything. There's just other expenses out there that you have to deal with that not everybody else has to do deal with. So without a doubt, I think that's understandable.

Liam: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Sunny: So tiny house living is a little bit different when you're living with another person because, I mean, we all have when we're living with another person in a regular sized home... Tell us a little bit about what the challenges are with living with another person in a tinier setting?

Liam: Mm-hmm (affirmative). First of all, I admit we might be at a little bit of a special case because we tend to just be very close human beings period I think. I think working in healthcare, you just like you get comfortable with other people in your space period. So we don't have some of the issues we would have expected initially living in such a small space. We don't tend to get upset with each other very easily or anything like that. But I think it also comes back to the fact that while we do sleep in and live in this very small location, we live outside of the I guess truck camper and not inside the truck camper. So we still have realistically more space than I think a lot of people get.

Liam: There's this idea of being trapped inside the suburban lifestyle where you go in and you have your mortgage and you have all your bills and your utilities and things like that. You're kind of trapped in the life you built for yourself basically. We get the freedom of being like, "This weekend I don't want to live in Colorado. I want to drive down to Arizona." And then I can just run outside for 10 miles and go climb a mountain and then come back and my house is right there. And that's my space. My space is I can just go outdoors and have the freedom there rather than I don't need to find another room. I can just go outside.

Sunny: That's awesome. Do you not have the same arguments? Like, "Hey, you're not picking up after yourself," though?

Liam: I think one of the things about the tiny space is you realize very fast how dirty things get.

Sunny: But you're not having the argument like, "You're stealing all the covers," because really you're not having that much room to steal?

Liam: No, we have [crosstalk]

Sunny: Scoot over.

Liam: I think they're exactly the same kinds of challenges you'd have in any sort of regular life. It's just I think we do have the distinct advantage to be like, "You know what, our setting's always changing. And I can always escape to the outdoors." We have our bikes with us. I can go mountain biking, and I can do all of these things, all of these hobbies that are much more accessible to me because I don't have to go back to Sixth Oak Street at the end of the day. I can spend more time just biking through the woods and then come right back to my house and to that other person just when I'm ready in that location without wasting time just driving to and fro and things like that.

Sunny: I think you are becoming the new Dr. Phil. I think you are.

Liam: My goal in life, you know.

Sunny: Because I just love it. I'm like, oh my gosh, maybe we should all move into a tiny home.

Matt: Everybody's moving into tiny houses for therapy.

Sunny: Yes.

Matt: Literally, therapy.

Sunny: I like it.

Matt: I like it. So Liam, without a doubt, some folks in our audience are probably thinking, "All right. I want to take at least the initial steps, and I'm interested in what Dr. Kavin is talking about here." What's your advice for someone thinking about making the move to a tiny house or the setup that you guys have today or even the van life?

Liam: I think first step absolutely is research, research, research. We read up on this stuff for a year before we built the truck camper. And then obviously I had the experience of living in the van, and there was a lot of research going into the van beforehand. And then kind of figuring out there's so many options out there, it depends on what works for you. If you're a tinkerer, then get something old, save a whole bunch of money and be okay with the fact that maybe you get to fix your old 1980s AirStream or something like that. But that's only if you're a tinkerer. If you're somebody who doesn't want to spend the time working on things, spend the money, buy an outdoor van, buy something that's already made, and get a new reliable thing that's going to work for you that has a warranty basically. It all depends. You're going to do the research, you're going to figure out this is what works for me, and this is what doesn't.

Liam: I think the big things that we looked at is we're like we want to... Our priorities are we want to be able to drive the whole thing off road, find a trail head in the middle of the woods somewhere. So we're like, "All right, we need four wheel drive." So we kind of based it or kind of tour it down that way and said, "All right, these are our options." We also knew that we needed a good size sleeping space. We needed the full kitchen. We needed to be able to work out of it full time. And so that gave us... It kind of cut down our list as well. But everybody's going to have their own list. And there's a lot of options out there, and it depends on how much money you want to spend and what your own abilities are.

Liam: And kind of aside from that, I'd say it's not that scary. After you do it for the first couple weeks, it feels like a bit step, but it's pretty easy. Once you get used to it, you take the step and it's like, "Oh, this is a good lifestyle that's not that hard to wrap your head around." If you're a traveler, you already have the capacity to deal with a lot more of a difficult life in mobility alone and how much you kind of uprooting yourself on a regular basis. So living in a camper or something like that is kind of a natural and I would argue easier step to make than to try to find housing everywhere you go.

Matt: I think that's great advice. I think if I'm hearing you correctly, if people are thinking about do it, do the research, take the plunge. It's not as scary as it might sound.

Liam: Exactly, yeah. And I'd also recommend kind of from a personal level, start out a cheap kind of easy project that you can do and just make sure you like it first. I know there's a bunch of companies that are popping up as well that let you rent a camper van. And then you can just rent one of those and see if that works for you for a couple weeks. Or do what we did, we bought the brand new truck because we wanted the warranty and everything like that and the reliability driving through the desert. But we started out with a really, really cheap camper. Our camper all said and done cost us $4000 fully rebuilt. And that's pretty cheap for a housing setup. Rather than dropping $60,000 on a new van and being like, "Wow, I hate this." Drop a couple thousand and build what you want, and then if you hate it, you just sell it. If you love it, you're like "All right. We can upgrade," which is actually our next step.

Matt: Nice, that's great advice.

Sunny: So what's next for you guys and the tiny house?

Liam: So right now, I forgot to mention one of the disadvantages of our current setup is we don't have a lot of insulation. Just by having a heater and everything like that. It's cold in Colorado. Usually every morning right now it's like 17 degrees, and we have canvas walls in the popup. So we got rather cold. So we moved into an apartment this last month or so. So we're working on our next camper, which is going to be a hide sider that has a full shell and everything like that with much more insulation. And so our next step is moving into or kind of having this shell built, rebuilding the interior to the way we want, and then moving into that as we drive up the West Coast.

Sunny: Well yeah. I think that's probably an important thing. And I know that we mentioned, and you've talked about your partner in crime, Gabrie. Can we say hi to her? Can she talk?

Liam: Say hi to her, is that what you said?

Sunny: Yeah.

Liam: Yeah, sure. Of course.

Sunny: Hi, Gabrie. I wanted to know what your perspective on this whole thing? Are you loving life traveling along?

Gabrie: I am. It's been really awesome getting to move out here and kind of have a way to do it where I can still work remotely and still have an income while we're out here, which is really nice.

Sunny: That's awesome. That's awesome. Well, we really, really appreciate having you guys both on this podcast with us and being able to share your insight with our listeners. And Liam, really just all of the feedback and just sharing your time with us. And before we wrap up, I really wanted to remind our listeners about your Instagram, which is @Timmyandtheuglycamper. But also, at the end of our podcast, do something, it's really the heart of what we do here at Cardium and it's giving the purpose of why we do what we do. And so I'm going to ask you, what's your why?

Liam: I think this is the question that I thought about quite a bit. And honestly, I struggle with a little bit because I think it has that air of the job interview question, like why do you want to work here. And everybody has to come up with a response and be like, "Oh, it's because I love the meaning behind the work," or something like that. Right? And I think if I really kind of just speak from the heart with this kind of question is, and why do we travel, why do we work or why do I work as a physical therapist is I think first and foremost, to be perfectly honest, we all have to work. We all have to make money at the end of the day. We got to support ourselves. That's kind of the world that we live in, and that's kind of your place in society regardless of whether or not you like that.

Liam: I do think no Matter what because you're in that position where you have to work, you might as well make it something that you can find adventure within that you can still kind of find inspiration in. You're not going to be super bored with. I think that's the problem with a lot of careers is monotony's kind of death of fun in a certain way. And the death of excitement and finding value in your own life. By traveling like this, by finding a career that kind of changes on a regular basis, we're able to create a career that's in that good for the world pretty much. Because we have to do this kind of thing where we have to work regardless, might has well make it something that's meaningful and something that's going to add something to the world overall.

Liam: And then especially the travel part now, while we're young, we can and we don't have the roots and things like that. We do it because it's exciting and because it makes us better people. It adds a lot to us, which in turn I think adds a lot to the world because if we can better ourselves, then we can kind of better our surroundings, better the world we live in, better our outlook, et cetera.

Sunny: Probably one of my favorite answers.

Matt: Yeah, that was a great one. Liam, thank you very much to you and Gabrie for joining us today. Really appreciate the insight to tiny house living, and I know that we've pitched our Instagram handle. So hopefully you get a lot of new followers. You guys better be doing some adventurous stuff because hopefully you get a lot of new followers after today's podcast.

Liam: We take some beautiful pictures.

Matt: Yeah. We look forward to seeing what adventures you guys are on. It'll be fun to see where you're at next year.

Sunny: I'll be following.

Matt: Yeah, for sure. For sure.

Liam: We just use it because it's fun. So it's a nice... And plus, maybe we can live in someone's yard when we move to another state.

Matt: Exactly.

Sunny: My yard's pretty big. My yard's pretty big if [crosstalk]

Matt: Sunny's offering her yard. There you go.

Liam: Oh, perfect. Perfect. You just follow us, and we can direct message you and yeah, it'll be perfect.

Sunny: All right. That'd be awesome.

Matt: All right. Very good. Well, thank you again, Liam, and good luck to you guys. That's going to wrap up today's podcast, folks. We'd love to hear from you so please drop us a review, let us know what your thoughts are on today's topic or anything else you'd like to discuss. With that, we're out of here. See you later, Sunny.

Sunny: See you later.

Matt: Bye bye everybody.

Sunny: Bye.

Voice Over: You've been listening to Cardium from Aureus Medical with your hosts Sunny and Matt. We're the podcast that gets to the heart of travel healthcare. To subscribe, access show notes, or to learn more, visit Cardiumpodcast.com. C-A-R-D-I-U-Mpodcast.com. Or wherever you're listening, be sure to rate us, review, and subscribe. Thanks for tuning in. Until next time.

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